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Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2007.01.02 21:48:00 -
[1]
the eula and the gms (combined with rl laws ofc) define what is fair and what isnt. To balantly put your views on things down as moral standards, mind you in a future online game environment where slavery, torture, mass murder, crime and death penalty are daily business only leads to you looking stupid.
If you go by the mentioned guiding authorities you will always be on the safe side and if you personally, your community, your corp, your alliance disagrees with some methods within these rules which you might feel to be "lame" youre free to avoid them. Its your freedom to do so.
Eve has seen many lame stuff and sees it on a daily basis. Unless the devs fix it, like the stabbed ravens or the old dual mwd ravens or or or its fair game.
As for the whole spy issue, the game honors itself with an image of spying, scamming, backhand deals and treachery. All morally wrong yet part of a more or less lawless society (lawless in ingame terms). Out of game laws will define the rest really. If you cant secure your forums, cant secure ur ts dont use it. You try to use an out of game tool to gain advantage and cry when it turns out be an dissadvantage.
Ive been playing online games since 8-9 years. In this time in all games ive played ppl used to spy, some went even beyond the legal line to get an advantage. It teached me one thing. Moral is subjective and unless forged into strict and enforced gamerules you will still find ppl exploiting them to their own advantage.
Perfect example are the current conflicts. Each entity had spies in Ascn, each entity had access to ts (as every member in ascn was given the chance to join ts) and everyone had a board account and used this way to gather intel. Yet bob gets called out for it ? D2 trying to spin this into a white and black thing doesnt work out, youre all as guilty just maybe not as successfull or not as much in the limelight.
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Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2007.01.02 22:01:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse
Edited by: Cmd Woodlouse on 02/01/2007 21:57:04
Originally by: Kcel Chim
the eula and the gms (combined with rl laws ofc) define what is fair and what isnt.
The easy and most pleasant way out. Not for me.
And neither D2 or G ever used TS spies just to win Fleetbattles via the I Win Button. Believe it or not, we dont like that stuff.
As i said if you like to fight with one hand tied behind your back it is your choice and more power to you.
You try to enforce your moral views on the game by stating that anything within the game rules (defined by the authorities i named) but outside of your narrow moral view is wrong.
As far as Ts spying goes, noone really knows how excessive it is or was used. BoB admitted to use it but thats already enough to spread misstrust and confusion amongst your enemies. I guess noone apart from the highest rank in bob will know how often ts spies really gave usefull info and how often a simple cov op uncovered ****ty ascn fleetmovement.
As shown before its easy to blame the losses and everything on a method you cant fight then to admit you did poorly. D2 fought Ascn before and you slaughtered them in the same way without ts spies. So i doubt it did much of a difference...
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Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2007.01.02 23:34:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse
Originally by: KIAEddZ
No morale limits at all. War is war.
eddz, i saw the video of your RL meeting.
war?
...
you seem to be fixed to this rl meeting stuff so ill add to it. A rl meeting always bears the risk of someone beeing dishonest. Welcome to the internet. Some ppl lie about their rl even if it doesnt grant them any advantage ingame just to feel better or to look better. I for one go to those meets always with a grain of salt knowing fairly well that someone might talk bollox there. The point is a corp of 200 guys all friends and really tight is illusional. You will have your 5-10 m8s you trust with your life the rest are corpies you might just meet once a year.
Completely unrelated to internet spacegames there have been many cases where m8s sold out m8s or best friends cheated on best friends irl and there still are every day. To think just because someone is in your corp that he must be loyal upright and have no ill feelings is abit naiv or ? I mean it doesnt even cover the fact that some relationships turn sour over a game over time, similar to spying and corpthefts.
In short im quiet sure eddz exspects that there could be someone going to those rl meets who might sooner or later stab him in the back (ingame) but having a rl blast > ingame worries any time of the day.
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Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2007.01.03 00:53:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Serapis Aote
Originally by: Metal Dude
And if CCP does not care about illegal hacking of someone forums, look out, because this will get a lot uglier. It will be open season on websites, so admins better get their security right.
So does this mean you guys are going to stop lying to people to get alts in corps so you can get TS and Forum access, because that is just as illegal as a brute force hack in almost every country.
Dear hobby lawyer, it is not illegal to lie in an online roleplaying game where the sole purpose is to play a virtual avatar as good as possible. I know youre all american and quote some fancy laws but u actually understand that playing a roleplaying game requires you to slip into another personality ? Its not "look im myself in a spaceship". You are either caldari, amarr or gallente not american or german.
Unless ppl learn to draw the line in this most basic thing u know who should stop playing the game because they dont understand the concept of it, as it is mostly the first group bringing in rl crimes and some rl law yada yada while those who understand what roleplaying means usually stay within the rules.
p.s. if you dont believe me check your american laws for murder, thievery, ransomning and other day to day business in eve. Im sure ull be able to make a long list of stuff u want to sue various ppl on.... 
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Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2007.01.03 01:00:00 -
[5]
Originally by: NATMav
Edited by: NATMav on 03/01/2007 00:53:34
It doesn't matter where you or I think it should end, the fact of the matter is that it will never end until players stop allowing themselves to be diluted by it and take a stand by leaving corps/alliances that like to stretch the boundaries of fair play and game mechanics.
The game is rapidly declining into a contest of who can screw over the next guy the most, rather than who is the better player/corp/alliance. Corp thefts are rampant, TS and forum exploits are on the rise, ships are logging in/out all over the damn place.
So it all comes down to how far do YOU, as an individual pilot, want the game to spiral downward in order for you to "win".
i partly agree with you, however let us not forget (as recently shown with the ASCN conflict) there is only so much "info" from the rumormills you can trust to be true.
As i pointed out in another thread it became a trend to defame your enemy not just as "a loser" or "an exploiter" but also his rl and not even ccp are save from baseless accusations and lies hurled out to cover up own mistakes these days.
So would you leave your corp if someone told you they think ur side has a ts spy ? As ET put it, some might leave but the majority will always stay because it the eyes of most it only sucks if youre on the receiving end. As shown by the way how ASCN whined about any kind of spying while beeing big in this shady business themself not even a few months earlier in the EC operation.
The conclusion is that eve will never form gentleman agreements because ppl are too bitter and everyone applies doublestandards. I wish it was different but thats my view on things atleast.
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Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2007.01.03 01:06:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Serapis Aote
It is illegal in the US to brute force hack a computer system.
It is illegal to access a computer system in the US with out consent, its called "unauthorized access"
You can not gain consent by lying.
Why ignore half the law, when it comes to hacking. Its the same thing in the eyes of the law.
Both are illegal. You just dont want to accept it. Your above idiotic argument works just as well for people that want to brute force hack an out of game forum as it does for lying to gain access.
No my dear friend once again it doesnt. In one case the avatar "kcel chim" is lying to the avatar "xy" to get access. With this access i also get access to the forums of said virtual cooperation. The access is not granted to "insert my rl name here" but to "kcel chim".
When you use your php exploits to hack the website of "enter rl name of domain admin here" you are acting as "enter rl name here" hacking (and breaking rl laws in the process). Quiet simple.
RL laws dont cover virtual worlds as hard as it may be for you to understand. Hacking however is a completely rl based activity as it doesnt involve any game related content whatsoever. Even someone without an eve account could do it.
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Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2007.01.03 01:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
As far as actions go, hacking i don't feel is acceptable, but neither is posting internal forums on the EVE O forums and saying that is part of a campaign of war. Sure if you have access tot hese things, good for you, but it should never be made public, ever.
I oddly enough agree with you on this one, however i guess the amount of outright lying and accusations did it in this case which made bob break the golden rule. Noone likes to be called those kind of stuff (especially if its not aimed at the avatars but mostly at the ppl behind the computer) infront of 5k ppl without reacting to it.
The smear campaign cyvok started backfired bigtime on him and i hope the next wars to follow will take a step back. However with the latest alt infection and hacking going around (which didnt only happen to bob forums by the same php exploits and from the same guy) it doesnt seem likely.
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